Curse

matti90 · Jun 28, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

The good skills get boring so we'll use their crap counterparts instead? What kind of unsensible, pseudo-elitist mindset is that?

This man speaks the truth, everyone else stop posting.

Improvavel · Jun 28, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

And I though that the mindset of this forums was to present the best possible builds (well outside [[ursan blessing]) so that new players that want to understand the game see what kind of skills get the hard places done.

Tyla · Jun 28, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

The good skills get boring so we'll use their crap counterparts instead? What kind of unsensible, pseudo-elitist mindset is that?

I agree that the usage of weaker skills isn't as good; but I tend to leave out PvE skills in my builds. I prefer to use skills that are less passive in general.

It's the same reason I don't play Paragon. Too much passive play. Sure, they're more effective, but I find it just as mindless as playing Ursan.

Improvavel · Jun 29, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It's the same reason I don't play Paragon. Too much passive play. Sure, they're more effective, but I find it just as mindless as playing Ursan.

While that is true, it offers the other 7 people a chance to play less boring builds than ursan.

Not only that the Imbagon is frail and can be shut by a variety of hexes, conditions, stances, etc. So while the Imbagon is very powerful and rather simple to play, it allows not only a bit more creativity in the other people builds, but since it is the defensive cornerstone of the team requires planning on how to keep him/her doing its job.

Many people seem to ignore that the game became harder not easier (yeah, before top gvg guilds could lose in sorrows furnace, now it would only happen in doa, except for the pve only skills). If it seems that prophecies is a lot easier now it is because the mobs are playing with rather obsolete and often nerfed skills. Mobs in other chapters are quite boosted.

Yes, PvE only skills make the normal mode areas of the game outside elite areas, later stage nightfall and gwen, a walk in the park. But not using pve only skills for the mentioned areas and their HM versions is going to require a level of preparation similar to that only seen in GvG. If people want to coupe with that, they might as well play GvG since it is more rewarding.

There is a reason Save yourselves and the early pve only skills came out just when the armor stacking got capped and around HM.

Frank Dudenstein · Jun 29, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

While that is true, it offers the other 7 people a chance to play less boring builds than ursan.

Not only that the Imbagon is frail and can be shut by a variety of hexes, conditions, stances, etc. So while the Imbagon is very powerful and rather simple to play, it allows not only a bit more creativity in the other people builds, but since it is the defensive cornerstone of the team requires planning on how to keep him/her doing its job.

Many people seem to ignore that the game became harder not easier (yeah, before top gvg guilds could lose in sorrows furnace, now it would only happen in doa, except for the pve only skills). If it seems that prophecies is a lot easier now it is because the mobs are playing with rather obsolete and often nerfed skills. Mobs in other chapters are quite boosted.

Yes, PvE only skills make the normal mode areas of the game outside elite areas, later stage nightfall and gwen, a walk in the park. But not using pve only skills for the mentioned areas and their HM versions is going to require a level of preparation similar to that only seen in GvG. If people want to coupe with that, they might as well play GvG since it is more rewarding.

There is a reason Save yourselves and the early pve only skills came out just when the armor stacking got capped and around HM.

So basically what you are saying is:

- We used to have a game that required the player to improve his skill, tactics, and teamwork as he progressed to harder and harder areas.

- And now we have a game that allows a player to just equip more and more overpowered skills as he progresses to harder and harder areas.

I'm not so sure I understand why this is a good thing...

Trvth Jvstice · Jun 29, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

So basically what you are saying is:

- We used to have a game that required the player to improve his skill, tactics, and teamwork as he progressed to harder and harder areas.

There's no doubt that most of the people that have been playing for 3 years would like to be able to play the game like we did way back then - relying on our experience and tactics to get us through the game - without gimmick PVE skills and builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

- And now we have a game that allows a player to just equip more and more overpowered skills as he progresses to harder and harder areas.

Other than Ursan, I can't think of any skill that is so overpowered that it would make the more difficult areas of the game a cakewalk. SY helps sure, but unless your team is experienced and coordinated, some areas of the game are as difficult as ever. You still have to rely on a good team, just like you did when the game was new. I doubt if any but the most elite teams from early GW could beat some of the most difficult areas of the game that we have now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

I'm not so sure I understand why this is a good thing...

Improvavel · Jun 29, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

So basically what you are saying is:

- We used to have a game that required the player to improve his skill, tactics, and teamwork as he progressed to harder and harder areas.

- And now we have a game that allows a player to just equip more and more overpowered skills as he progresses to harder and harder areas.

I'm not so sure I understand why this is a good thing...

I didn't say that was a good thing.

What I'm saying is that teams of 8 lvl 20 players fighting each other is very different from a team of 8 lvl 20 players fighting a dozen of lvl 28 mobs.

Those mobs got bigger and bigger, gained environment area effects and unique skills like enraged.

Meanwhile the defense skills like watch yourself, spirits, spirit bond got nerfed.

If you look at gwen, mobs are harder to kill cause they have more balanced builds, not because they have ridiculous stats and skills.

The profession pve-only skills were and are pretty powerful, and some got nerfed before. The new ones are even worse. Ursan is the worse of all, a complete build with no weakness and unique features.

But that doesn't change the fact that fighting level 28-30 mobs under environment effects, that have an extra pip of regen, unique skills, tons of life and armor, cast in half the time, attack faster, recharge their skills faster and move faster can be done with a watch yourself that last 2-3 hits.

Look what an impact the changes to the npcs at VoD in GvG had. And what? Those rangers were dealing what 120+ damage per hit? In PvE a monster that hits for less than 200 is an easy monster. Bosses that deal 500+ in an area to AR60 casters are what you have to deal with.

But, of course the earlier mobs didn't get updated.

It's not the pve only skills that are wrong! It's the complete abuse of enemies like Anur mobs that made those things almost, I say again, almost mandatory.

PvE is supposed to be a somewhat challenging place, one that requires the understanding of builds and tactics in the harder areas, but not "TS MANDATORY".

If people want that level of commitment they go GvG against clever enemies that adapt and don't need abusive stats or breaking the rules.

farmpig · Jun 29, 2008, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Hasnt ws been buffed back to 1st 10 hits? Or am i wrong?

A Leprechaun · Jun 29, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmpig

Hasnt ws been buffed back to 1st 10 hits? Or am i wrong?

Yes, it has, like I said on the first page.

Meh I will still use [WY] every now and again, just like I use [save yourselves] every now and again. Guild wars is so damn boring now I have to change my build every time I enter an instance just to keep myself from uninstalling it.

~A Leprechaun~

Teutonic Paladin · Jun 29, 2008, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

There's no doubt that most of the people that have been playing for 3 years would like to be able to play the game like we did way back then - relying on our experience and tactics to get us through the game - without gimmick PVE skills and builds.

Other than Ursan, I can't think of any skill that is so overpowered that it would make the more difficult areas of the game a cakewalk. SY helps sure, but unless your team is experienced and coordinated, some areas of the game are as difficult as ever. You still have to rely on a good team, just like you did when the game was new. I doubt if any but the most elite teams from early GW could beat some of the most difficult areas of the game that we have now.

I'd group imbagons in the cakewalk catagory.

(Not talking about PvP here) Alot of people on guru often look back to "the old days" or "back then" complaining about how everything is given to PvE players these days. But honestly, I'm not a great player, I don't have legendary vanquisher or Mastery if the North, and I managed to Hench every Elite Skill in Cantha and Tyria before NF came out (Using a Mark of Protection Warrior). Maybe our skills are much more powerful these days, but our enemies are much more powerful.

I'm not a fan of Ursan (it trivializes every mob in every game) but outside of Ursan I'd say PvE is fairly balanced. Veterans complain of the ease of HM but maybe the reason it looks easy is because most of the posters here and vocal members of the GW community are older, stronger players. THK used to be this terrible obstacle that few could beat and pass into the RoF. Maybe it wasn't so difficult because of the lack of PvE skills, but because we all just sucked back then. We didn't know what winning combinations were and almost everyone played with PuGs.

Also, how the hell is SY (Talking about Warriors) a more passive skill than WY? With "Save Yourselves!" you have to build adrenaline carefully, changing targets to avoid blocking and microing hero condition removal. With WY, you play as normal, swinging away on the squishiest target you can find, except you spam a number as you do it.

Tyla · Jun 29, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Also, how the hell is SY (Talking about Warriors) a more passive skill than WY? With "Save Yourselves!" you have to build adrenaline carefully, changing targets to avoid blocking and microing hero condition removal. With WY, you play as normal, swinging away on the squishiest target you can find, except you spam a number as you do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

I would run Godmode D-Slasher again, but I prefer utility that means I have to put thought into it's use. Such as an interrupt.

It would simply stop it being god-mode, but I prefer to use active skills. That's just me, anyway.

The Meth · Jun 29, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

We're talking about [skill]watch yourself[/skill].
If you would slot this, and you have a PvE slot to spare, name me one good reason not to take [skill]save yourselves[/skill] instead of it.

The good skills get boring so we'll use their crap counterparts instead? What kind of unsensible, pseudo-elitist mindset is that?

Again, if that is your mindset, we might as well end the discussion and say use [Ursan Blessing]. Some people want to use skills that don't make this game easier then Hello Kitty Online.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Other than Ursan, I can't think of any skill that is so overpowered that it would make the more difficult areas of the game a cakewalk. SY helps sure, but unless your team is experienced and coordinated, some areas of the game are as difficult as ever. You still have to rely on a good team, just like you did when the game was new. I doubt if any but the most elite teams from early GW could beat some of the most difficult areas of the game that we have now.

I seriously doubt you have tried SY then. With it up your team is invulnerable unless the SY user encounters blocking or decreased attack speed. Is condition removal something only "experienced and coordinated" teams are capable of these days? Plenty of good teams can beat DoA NM without using PvE skills btw, now if you are talking about DoA HM in your last sentence then thats a problem with the area design making certain builds hopelessly useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I'm not a fan of Ursan (it trivializes every mob in every game) but outside of Ursan I'd say PvE is fairly balanced. Veterans complain of the ease of HM but maybe the reason it looks easy is because most of the posters here and vocal members of the GW community are older, stronger players. THK used to be this terrible obstacle that few could beat and pass into the RoF. Maybe it wasn't so difficult because of the lack of PvE skills, but because we all just sucked back then. We didn't know what winning combinations were and almost everyone played with PuGs.

If by "fairly balanced" you mean "take this build and your team automatically wins no matter how little attention you pay to it and how badly you play it", then sure.

Teutonic Paladin · Jun 29, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I wasn't aware that every single person that played a Dragon Slash Warrior had KoBD (6), my mistake.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

If by "fairly balanced" you mean "take this build and your team automatically wins no matter how little attention you pay to it and how badly you play it", then sure.

Tyla · Jun 29, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

^
What?

12 chars of confusion

DarkNecrid · Jun 29, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

He's saying (incorrectly) that since everyone who uses DS Warrior doesn't have r6 in the most grindtacular title in the game, it must be balanced and not broken at all.

all i have to say to that is

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Teutonic Paladin · Jun 29, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

He's saying (incorrectly) that since everyone who uses DS Warrior doesn't have r6 in the most grindtacular title in the game, it must be balanced and not broken at all.

all i have to say to that is

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Actually I'm saying that his statement is bullshit. But on topic, "Save Yourselves!" does not give you the magical ability to instantly kill any mob. Maybe it is unbalanced, whatever that means in PvE. However, without PvE skills where are we, back to a supposedly balanced Tank and Spank? How exactly do you balance a format that revolves around computer AI, you can always find a different way to exploit it.

The Meth · Jun 29, 2008, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Actually I'm saying that his statement is bullshit. But on topic, "Save Yourselves!" does not give you the magical ability to instantly kill any mob. Maybe it is unbalanced, whatever that means in PvE. However, without PvE skills where are we, back to a supposedly balanced Tank and Spank? How exactly do you balance a format that revolves around computer AI, you can always find a different way to exploit it.

Yes it does let you kill any mob. I could kill any mob in the game with 8 monks wanding enemies and using SY. Piece of cake. The defense means you just can't lose.

Everything outside of HM DoA is doable without the tank strategies. I bet NM DoA outside of mallyx would be H/H'able if they let henchies in to there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I wasn't aware that every single person that played a Dragon Slash Warrior had KoBD (6), my mistake

If by this you are intending to say: "If SY was so overpowered why doesn't every D-Slash Warrior have KoaBD 6?" Its because you don't get KoaBD 6 from beating all of the areas in the game. You get it by beating a few of the easier areas of the game 1000x over.

Teutonic Paladin · Jun 29, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

If by this you are intending to say: "If SY was so overpowered why doesn't every D-Slash Warrior have KoaBD 6?" Its because you don't get KoaBD 6 from beating all of the areas in the game. You get it by beating a few of the easier areas of the game 1000x over.

Legendary Vanquisher and Guardian are the easiest areas of the game? There are alot of people playing DSlash and alot of them lose. H/H skill choice and micro plays a huge role, ability to keep yourself away from anti melee, it's not as simple as equipping a skill and instantly winning any area.

DarkNecrid · Jun 29, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Legendary Vanquisher and Guardian are the easiest areas of the game? There are alot of people playing DSlash and alot of them lose. H/H skill choice and micro plays a huge role, ability to keep yourself away from anti melee, it's not as simple as equipping a skill and instantly winning any area.

this is basic stuff man, how can someone lose with that. It's just kiting and brains...oh so thats how....

The Meth · Jun 29, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

OHNOZS! I HAVE TO USE CONDITION AND HEX REMOVAL SOMETIMES! THIS IS SO HARD!

I think your message is more clear this way.

Anyone losing with DSlash going for the vanguisher/guardian titles deserves to be culled from the gene pool. If you meet a decent player who has SY available and doesn't have one of those titles its because doing 60 some missions and 120 areas in invinicible mode is too boring for them to bother.